Interview | Gabrielius Landsbergis: Spirit of Freedom is a Total Nightmare for Dictators
Gabrielius Landsbergis is the former Foreign Minister of Lithuania (2020-2024). He is currently visiting Georgia, having already met the country’s fifth president, Salome Zurabishvili, and opposition figures. His visit comes at a tumultuous and unprecedented time, as the country’s relations with the West deteriorate, the political crisis deepens and repression in Georgia increases by the day. Civil.ge‘s managing editor Nata Koridze sat down with Mr. Landsbergis to discuss his views on the processes unfolding in Georgia, in the region and the world.
Civil.ge: Georgia by all accounts is in a deep political crisis. The protests demanding new elections and the release of all illegally detained have been continuing for over three months now. In your opinion, what might be the longer-term consequences for Georgia if the political crisis is not resolved soon?
Isolation, including increased economic isolation, which means less or less access to financial markets, investment, attractiveness. Gloomier future for every person, be it a businessman in Tbilisi or a pensioner somewhere in the village in the mountains. That means that everybody will start to feel, I think they are already starting to feel, the consequences of this political situation. And if it gets worse, it means that all the other consequences are going to get worse as well.
And what effect do you think that might have on the region?
Well, it’s a very dangerous situation. Because the region is on a fault line, just like we are in the Baltics. And without being committed to the Western side, it means that there is a clear pull towards the only other geopolitical center, which is Moscow. This means that the region is gradually beginning to gravitate towards Moscow’s sphere of influence. What is interesting is that the biggest resistance to this pull is now in Yerevan, where you have a country that historically seemed to have very close ties with Moscow. And now it’s one of the drivers of the pro-European, pro-Western attitude.
…This government has turned the wheel and allowed the country to gravitate [to Moscow].
Georgia is forced to gravitate to the other side. Although, people travel to the West, they work in Europe, they enjoy being part of the West intellectually and physically, unfortunately this is what is happening- this government has turned the wheel and allowed the country to gravitate.
The Swedish research organization V-DEM Institute has downgraded Georgia to an electoral autocracy in its most recent democracy report. What ingredients are important in your opinion to fight an autocracy like the one we have here, in Georgia? How does this process look from Vilnius? What is, you think, not being done or is being done the way it should be?
You know, this is probably one of the most frequently asked questions during my trip. I don’t feel that Brussels is in a good position to fight the rise of autocracies. We find it very difficult even to fight the autocracies that are emerging within the EU.
The fight for Georgia’s freedom is mainly in the Georgians’ hands. Of course, there are friends who will support you. There are societies that will support you. But the world has lost its beacon of direction, that is a liberal democracy.
The fight for Georgia’s freedom is mainly in the Georgians’ hands. Of course, there are friends who will support you. There are societies that will support you. But the world has lost its beacon of direction, that is a liberal democracy. We right now are sitting surrounded by Francis Fukuyama’s books, that was the classical liberal thinking of the West.
And unfortunately, one part of it, the United States part of it, has decided to extinguish that beacon itself. And Europe is not yet there to light it up.
Lithuania has sanctioned dozens of Georgian officials and enablers of democratic backsliding and of human rights violations, including GD founder Bidina Ivanishvili and GD Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze. The EU tried but has not been able to achieve a consensus on the sanctions’ issue. So this sort of proves what you were saying just now. But how do you see the prospect of other countries following suit of the Baltic states?
I think it’s a bit disappointing that more countries haven’t joined. This is an ongoing process and it’s very difficult to achieve now because Georgia doesn’t have a diplomatic corps that would ask for it. Right? So your ability to reach the capitals is limited. Who is going to help you reach out to Berlin or Paris or Rome or other capitals to persuade them to do the same thing? So it’s a very tough job.
President Salome Zurabishvili – she was and is potentially the best placed person to do this outreach. She’s doing a great job and I hope she continues to do so. I hope she’ll find a way to do it.
It is also very important to make your voice heard. So that the voice for freedom in Georgia is not silenced. That is the main hope to convince others to do the right thing.
Also rely on your friends – the countries that you have as friends. Ask others to do the job for you, in a way that you are empowered. But, it is also very important to make your voice heard. So that the voice for freedom in Georgia is not silenced. That is the main hope to convince others to do the right thing.
When it comes to Brussels: people have said that there was an alarm bell, probably the last alarm bell, during Munich Security Conference, when the U.S. Vice President made statements and the Secretary of Defense made statements, then the President later on made statements, and people say: this is alarm bell. I’ve said, half-jokingly, okay, but if this doesn’t wake people up, maybe those people are no longer alive.
But again, we need to continue poking them: wake up. That’s a very long process. And hopefully things will change.
Georgian dream officials have recently doubled down on the “deep state” and this Global War Party rhetoric. And insisting that Georgia’s longtime partners were demanding Georgia to open the “second front” after the Russian invasion in Ukraine. And at least part of the population believes the narrative. Meanwhile, along with an attack on independent media inside the country, we see the recent U.S. decree ordering dismantling of the US Agency for Global Media overseeing several independent media outlets such as Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which ostensibly will make it much easier for the Russian disinformation to influence peoples’ minds not only here but in other countries as well. What is the solution there?
I wish I had one. There are some initiatives in Europe, again, to take over what was left after dismantling the US programs. This could happen. Again, I think that there has to be a clear advocacy, a clear voice about why it is important and what it means if those things are lost.
I’m afraid that Europe has lost its belief that it can actually change things, that it can actually win.
But I’m again reverting to a more broader concept, which is that I’m afraid that Europe has lost its belief that it can actually change things, that it can actually win. That it can actually win in Georgia, it can actually win in Ukraine, it can actually win in other places.
So, one of the things that need to be transmitted from Tbilisi by the people to Brussels is that Brussels does matter, that their decisions do matter. They can change the reality on the ground, because it’s as if people no longer believe that and they just want to forget the whole thing and look inwards. And then Europe is actually going through a similar isolationist thing. It’s not as vocal as in the US, but it’s a very similar thing. We don’t have the stamina, the energy to deal with Georgian problems, US-created problems, anybody. And it’s sort of shrinking Europe, shrinking the Western world and making us very small and then leaving our friends behind.
When I come to Tbilisi, when I come to Kiyv, I return with more hope because I see people that are more resilient than the ones I meet in Brussels.
So, when I come to Tbilisi, when I come to Kiyv, I return with more hope because I see people that are more resilient than the ones I meet in Brussels. And this is the feeling that I would like to be transmitted.
Actually, my next question was exactly about that: with so many other pressing issues on the EU agenda, we are in danger of Georgia’s issue getting into oblivion. Georgia was absent from the agenda of yesterday’s FAC meeting in Brussels. How can Georgia avoid fading into irrelevance for the EU?
Remember 1990s? When you and us, we just fought for our freedom not because we cared what others would think about it, but because we cared about the future of our country. And that’s made others care about our countries.
In 1990s, Washington would have done anything not to have Lithuania’s problem on the table. We were a nuisance, a problem. And they asked and they begged and they forced us to not to do that. And despite of that and because it was about our country [we did]…. Unfortunately for us, it could be that for Georgia it’s 1990s. It could be that your country’s future is at stake.
Maybe it’s even more difficult.
Maybe yes, because people are more tired. It’s not so clear what you are fighting for. And the methods have become more sophisticated.
It’s difficult to compare, and Ivanishvili is not Soviet Union. But oppressive regimes are oppressive regimes. Russia of today is a Stalinist country. With clear imperialistic ambition, oppressive methods inside, which are enforced by the security apparatus. It’s Stalinist system. And Belarus is the same.
And unfortunately there are a lot of signs that the Georgian government is sort of taking on board these authoritarian methods.
I can give you one example, it sounds bizarre and almost difficult to believe, but EU Ambassadors were able to witness Navalny’s trials in Moscow, whereas now our Ambassadors are not allowed to go and witness the trials that are taking place in Tbilisi.
It’s a salami tactic of authoritarianism, where you know that you’re going bit by bit, and then people might not feel the immediate jump towards, where you’ve been in democratic Georgia and then you suddenly are in a very different Georgia because it’s gradually changed.
What you said about Europe was not very optimistic. It seems that there is no other hope than Europe for Ukraine and for us.
Well, I can give you some more bad news. I’m of the opinion that the deal or what I call the pact between Trump and Putin is already made. It doesn’t make much difference whether it’s actually made or whether it’s basically still being discussed, but it will be made. It will be made without Ukraine, it will be made without Europe. And we’ll have to deal with the consequences.
Europe has a chance to stand up and offer leverage and help to Ukraine.
Europe has a chance to stand up and offer leverage and help to Ukraine. But look, we are already in the second month after the US declared its alignment with Russia’s interests. And so far there has not been a single decision to support Ukraine. Not one single decision.
There has been posturing, there have been meetings, there have been discussions and debates.
You mean from the EU side?
Yes, from EU side. Member states are doing their things. I tweeted a couple of days ago that what I’m hearing from Europe is basically the crickets chirping in the night. So, basically the silence. And so many people attacked me, saying Germany sending this and Sweden is sending that. And I OK, fine, every single country is doing their part. That’s OK. But there is a reason why we are in the Union.
…Every single country is doing their part. That’s OK. But there is a reason why we are in the Union.
Because, in solidarity, we should do things that are important for the whole Union. And we don’t. And speak with one voice. And we don’t. We are unable. We’re not doing anything. And some people’ve said, oh, but look, there will be a meeting next week to discuss the plans – second month!
So where is my hope? What I’m hopeful about is: you know, I’ve visited the Ukrainian military industrial sites where they’re building the drones, engineer stuff, and it looks amazing. And I can tell you I see more hope in that rather than in what will come out of the corridors of Brussels. Because they are producing real things that they can actually get results on the battlefield themselves, for their own money. You know, and they are determined to fight.
So again, where I’m picking up the fighting spirit? In Kiyv. You go to Kyiv, you understand, okay, these people can fight and they have the spirit.
It’s the same when I see people here in Tbilisi going to the protests, for 111 days now: I see more resilience than I see at home. And that is the resilience that I would like to import, that spirit. I would like to import it in big quantities. If you are able to pack it alongside with your wine, maybe it comes with wine, I don’t know… [smiles].
Many in the region fear that once Russia’s war machine has been turned on and once Russia’s economy and regime survival depend on it, it will continue and not stop no matter what the outcome of Russia’s war in Ukraine is right now. These are concerns not only in Georgia but other countries in region and I think also in Baltic states, in Poland and even further. How worried are you? Is the EU moving fast enough as the only geopolitical union theoretically capable of reacting?
No, it’s not moving fast enough. I usually formulate it like this: it can, it’s not over until it’s over. Europe has the ability to wake up on the very last day and still make an impact. Because it’s just as much power, you know, in Europe.
But what about all these talks about the coalition of willing, as is practice in NATO, you know, for example?
It is better than nothing, clearly, you know the meetings in UK… I don’t want to ruin all hope. Let’s see what happens. I mean, there is a chance. But honestly, so far it has been rather slow.
And there are no indications that Putin wants to stop. Because it’s dangerous for him.
Imagine 1.5 million army of mercenaries. If there’s a ceasefire, and actual ceasefire, because you know “a ceasefire” does not equal an actual ceasefire, he has to make a decision whether to demobilize 1.5 million people. Maybe it would be a million, I don’t know. And to release them where, to Tuva? People who are directly from the battle, bloodthirsty, armed, what are going to do there? And domestic violence, unfortunately, might be the least of their worries.
So, put them somewhere else, put them on the border with NATO, put them in Georgia, put them in Moldova. Well, options are – plenty. So yes, it is a very dangerous time. Additionally, to round up with Europe: Europe might wake up, as I mentioned. It might stand up, it might do the right thing. It might require five years, it might require seven years, it might require ten years, I don’t know.
And Putin does understand this. That the longer he waits there is a chance that Europe, and the West, and maybe the US might change.
If Europe picks up, then time is working against Putin. If it doesn’t, well, for Putin, the current situation is very good.
We see protests in Hungary and Serbia against pro-Russian governments. Granted, the context is entirely different of course from the Georgian context, but this element though is similar. What does it tell us? Do you think this is manifestation of the standoff between authoritarianism and democracy in Europe in general?
Well, I think that this metaphysical feeling of freedom cannot be extinguished entirely. Even China had a Tiananmen moment, with all the repressions, the Cultural revolution… that means that there was a spirit of freedom somewhere in the universities, somewhere it was, and it exploded. It was extinguished again, but it is there. And it’s a total nightmare for the dictators. This is the most fragile point.
I think that this metaphysical feeling of freedom cannot be extinguished entirely
This is something that they cannot control, because it’s spiritual. It’s like faith. I believe that the person has to be free. And you cannot tell me otherwise. I’m prepared to die for it. And this is what we see manifesting in Budapest. In Belgrade. And then Tbilisi.
The US administration has made it clear that it’s changing its stance on NATO, with President Trump for instance saying he doesn’t think that the US should be bound by Article 5 to a NATO country that doesn’t spend enough on defense. What is the future of NATO from today’s perspective?
NATO is in a tough position, because NATO works as long as not only the Allies agree that they have to work together, but also as long as the enemies believe that NATO works. The moment that the enemy believes that the lock is not working and you can just enter, that the guard is no longer there, he might try it. And I think that there has been enough reassurance, or at least signaling to Moscow that the door might pretty much be unlocked.
Maybe next year when I come I will have more good news.
Let’s hope. Thank you so much.
This post is also available in: ქართული (Georgian) Русский (Russian)