O’Brien: “This is not a Government Capable of Bringing Georgia Toward Europe”

“They are in denial” – says US Assistant Secretary James O’Brien about Georgian Dream leadership and explains why he thinks “this is not a government capable of bringing Georgia toward Europe”. The Assistant Secretary spoke to Voice of America (VoA) Georgian Service’s Eka Maghaldadze after the deadline for voluntary registration under the law on “Transparency of Foreign Influence ” had passed. He says preventing CSOs and media organizations to function properly with this “fundamentally flawed” law in the leadup to the elections, seems like removing the leg from a “three-legged stool” and raises concerns that the Parliamentary elections in Georgia won’t be seen as free and fair. We offer you the original video and a full transcript of this conversation. Both are courtesy of VoA, with our minor edits for clarity.

VoA: The law on “foreign influence transparency” is advancing to the new level of implementation, when the Government will forcibly register the organizations and the fines will follow. What is the message of the administration at this very moment for the Georgian Dream leaders and for the organizations who did not voluntarily register?

Assistant Secretary James O’Brien: We want the Georgian people to be able to register their votes in a free and fair election. For that to happen, we need to see the whole process work well. That includes having community groups, citizen organizations, volunteers, all of these organizations able to work effectively over the next several months without fear of oppression, without fear of violence. That’s the important thing.

Now, this law, as we’ve said repeatedly, is flawed fundamentally.

Now, this law, as we’ve said repeatedly, is flawed fundamentally. There are ways that European states protect their election systems. This law does not do that. And you mentioned one of the points we’ve raised from the beginning: that having a government agency essentially force a registration and have access to all the data in that organization is at odds with modern European practice. It’s just bad lawyering that Georgia chose to put this law in place this way, and it has caused an enormous amount of damage to Georgia’s prospects for joining the EU and NATO.

The EU already has said that the EU process is effectively suspended, and it’s entirely because the government decided to write this law in the way that it did and that’s a shame.

How can preventing these organizations from fulfilling their mission, affect the elections and whether these elections are perceived as fair and, free?

The elections need to be free and fair. It’s good that the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe will be able to have a mission to observe some parts, but that organization depends on community groups, ordinary Georgian citizens being able to make sure people are registered, have the right knowledge to cast their own ballot, show up at the right places, and that the votes are counted.

What this law does is try to kick one leg out from a three-legged stool. It doesn’t work. And so, I’m worried that it means the elections will not be free and fair, and they certainly won’t be seen as free and fair.

All of that is one big system, and what this law does is try to kick one leg out from a three-legged stool. It doesn’t work. And so, I’m worried that it means the elections will not be free and fair, and they certainly won’t be seen as free and fair. Without that, Georgia can’t make the next step forward.

The comprehensive review of bilateral relationship is ongoing, direct aid to the government is paused, military drills are indefinitely postponed, visa restrictions are enacted, Spokesperson says that further actions are not ruled out – what are the next steps or measures that the US government might take? What are the options on the table that might follow?

So, I talk more about the things that would be of most concern to us. We have already put in place, a restriction on travel to the US that’s affected dozens of people. We’re not allowed to say who exactly. But it’s a very significant step. We have suspended help. Help, assistance to a range of the Georgian society. That’s a shame, but it’s necessary.

And the EU has said that the process of joining the EU is effectively suspended, and it has withheld a substantial amount of aid to Georgia because of the way this law was written.

Now, we do not want to see a return to the kind of violence, harassment and oppression that we saw in the spring, where civil society groups, where of individuals who had their names mentioned. They were visited by often thuggish groups with Russian accents, they were visited by members of the government. All of those things that can’t happen. Those are the sorts of things we’ll be watching very carefully at the time to come.

Meanwhile, Georgian Dream leaders promise to “ban opposition parties” after the elections. Prime Minister detailed how would they outlaw what they call the “collective United National Movement”. How does this sound from NATO and EU aspiring country leadership and what are the concerns that it raises for you about the democracy or the ruling party’s intentions?

It doesn’t sound like a democracy. You know, one party doesn’t get to decide what other party gets to compete. It’s for the citizens to decide what parties take their seats in parliament according to fair rules that are understood in advance.

So yes, that was I think a very revealing comment. And it suggests that this is not a government capable of bringing Georgia toward Europe.

Russian intelligence services are accusing the US of plotting the “regime change” in Georgia. Some Georgian Dream members also have blamed organizations like NDI or IRI helping the opposition. What do you make of these accusations and are you worried about possible Russian interference, or malign influence pre, during or after the elections in Georgia?

Well, anyone who believes the Russian security services, I think is fooling themselves. The American organizations are very transparent. It’s known who we work with, and we work to support the Georgian people so that they can organize themselves inside government, outside government. That’s the full goal. We don’t pick winners and losers. I note it’s sort of odd that Georgian Dream has won election after election after election, while claiming that we’re somehow conspiring against them. It’s a ridiculous comment.

We are for the Georgian people, most of whom, almost 90% of whom, want to move toward Europe, and it’s this government with its very bad legal drafting, like it’s just bad lawyering that has caused this problem. And we would like them to fix it so that the Georgian people can organize themselves and could have a free and fair election.

Are you worried about possible Russian interference, or malign influence on the elections in Georgia?

What I want to keep the focus on is that this is a decision by the government, and what the government is doing is making it harder for Georgia’s own citizens to organize themselves. And for Georgia’s longtime friends in Europe and the United States to help Georgia’s own citizens.  

Whatever the case has been till now, what the government is doing makes it much easier for Russia to dominate Georgia’s information space.

In that environment if the government succeeds in clear-cutting, you know, denying access to resources by all these groups, the only ones left standing will be Russian sources of information. So, whatever the case has been till now, what the government is doing makes it much easier for Russia to dominate Georgia’s information space.

Georgian opposition leaders as well as civil activists are calling Georgia’s western partners – the US and the EU to sanction Bidzina Ivanishvili as a person who they believe has the ultimate decision-making power to change the course. He didn’t meet with you, he refused to meet with the US Senators. Where do you stand on this and what do you think can be the defining moment when he might be the subject of the US sanctions?

It’s a great question, and I’ll say a couple of things. We do not have sanctions on Mr. Ivanishvili. I keep saying that he keeps claiming we do. You know, I think this is a departure from reality. But the key thing is- it’s for Georgia’s citizens to decide the future of the country, and they will decide if they want this party to be in charge or a coalition or a mixture of other people. That’s their choice.

So, we are not going to weigh in and say, we think a party supported by this or that person is the one that should win. We are for the Georgian people, getting the opportunity to make their own decision.

You personally met with Georgian authorities, Under Secretary Zeya and the US bipartisan, bicameral delegation traveled to Georgia, they met with the leaders of the Georgian Dream. Prime Minister Kobakhidze has been talking about the “reset” needed in the relations between the US and Georgia”. After so many high-level engagements with the Georgian authorities, do you have any indication that there is either a willingness on the other side to bring the positions closer, readiness to have an open conversation, or any hope for changing the course?  

No. And they’re in denial. They haven’t noticed that we’ve suspended $95 million in assistance. The EU is suspending a proportionate amount. They are saying you don’t get to move toward Europe. And what Georgian Dream tries to tell its voters, and all Georgian citizens is everything is fine. It is not fine.

What Georgian Dream tries to tell its voters, and all Georgian citizens is everything is fine. It is not fine.

Georgia wants to join the European Union. There are clear rules. The people responsible for those rules are saying you have made a mistake. You have written a bad law. They are on the verge of writing two new bad laws and those need to stop in order for the people of Georgia to get what they overwhelmingly want.

Prime Minister says there is a threat on Bidzina Ivanishvili’s life and that even the opposition leaders might be staging attacks on themselves to escalate the tensions during election season. Do you expect, have any information or are you worried about possible escalation, or violence during the election season?

An altogether serious points. If we knew of threats, we would be helping to stop it. We do have effective cooperation with Georgia on security issues. We would do everything we can to stop that from happening. We know of no such threats.

As far as people attacking themselves, that doesn’t seem like something you should believe coming from a political opponent. I think at some point that starts to look a little like a crazy social media page.

As far as people attacking themselves, that doesn’t seem like something you should believe coming from a political opponent. I think at some point that starts to look a little like a crazy social media page.

I think this is about the Georgian people being able to decide what path they want to take and being able to organize themselves to help bring the country the direction they want, whatever direction that is. And that’s what we’re trying to support.

The administration accused Russia of a far-reaching effort to influence the U.S. presidential election, including by promoting disinformation, and using American influencers to spread propaganda.  Do you believe that Russian government and its proxies, or other foreign powers will continue the attempt to influence the election outcome and what are the means taken to make sure that this effort is not successful? 

Yeah. The most important thing is to allow American citizens- just like voters in Georgia in the Georgian elections- the access to free and fair information and the ability to organize themselves, right. That’s what democracy is about. It’s about citizens.

What we did here yesterday [on Wednesday, September 4] is look at just one operation that was covertly paying people to say things that the Russian government had written. That’s a very narrow action.

I’d urge everyone just read what the Justice Department is saying in court and that matters.

And again, we’ve said again and again to the Georgian officials: the transparency you say you want is readily available. All the American organizations are transparent. The European organizations are transparent. There are ways to achieve that. But they’ve chosen to do it in a way that lets the Ministry of Justice control your local neighborhood organization. And that’s not democratic, and it’s not part of Europe. We want them to turn back so that the Georgian people can be part of Europe.