Interview | Rasa Juknevičienė: It’s Important Not to Give Up
Rasa Juknevičienė is a Lithuanian politician and a member of the European Parliament since 2019. She is a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the European Parliament (AFET) and of the EU-Georgia Parliamentary Association Committee, as well as European Parliament’s Standing Rapporteur for Georgia. Ms. Juknevičienė is a staunch supporter of Georgia’s European path and democracy. Rasa Juknevičienė served her country as Vice-President of the Parliament and Minister of Defense (2008-2012), and joined the NATO Parliamentary Assembly in 1999 as head of the Lithuanian delegation, becoming its President nineteen years later. She was the first woman in history to hold the post. In her present role she has often been targeted by the Georgian Dream top figures for criticizing the democratic backsliding in the country. Ms. Juknevičienė was in Georgia on February 26 for a one day visit. Civil.ge’s Nata Koridze sat down with her to discuss current developments in the country, the EU policy towards Georgia and the future of the European security.
Ms Juknevičienė, thank you very much for talking to Civil.ge. First of all, could you tell us what is the purpose of your visit to Georgia at the moment, who have you already met and who are you meeting?
I’m a standing rapporteur on Georgia in the European Parliament, so a big part of my activities in the parliament now is Georgia because it’s my responsibility, and also because I’m Lithuanian – and we understand what an important time this is for you in your history, in European history, with everything that’s going on in the streets of Georgia.
On the other hand, it was an opportunity to visit Georgia, at least for one day, because I am back from Yerevan. And I am also a member of the European Parliament’s delegation to the South Caucasus. And we had a committee meeting with the Armenian Parliament. And back home I decided to stay in Tbilisi for a day and meet your President, President Salome Zurabishvili.
I also met with EU ambassadors. I will meet with non-governmental organizations, also political leaders from the opposition, and at the end I will also have a conversation with some stakeholders in the Lithuanian embassy. So it’s going to be a very short, informative, very busy visit, but it’s very important to have face-to-face meetings and to have full information about what’s going on, but most importantly to get some ideas, proposals and to work out some plans for the future.
What do you think the pro-democracy forces and pro-EU forces in Georgia should be doing right now? What is your message to them?
First of all, I’m impressed that people are so convinced and people feel that this is a moment for their generation to fight for the European future of Georgia. This is an existential fight. And I see it, I hear it from the people. I was with them on the streets in December when they asked us, I mean the European Union, for more support. But my message has always been that no one can be more Georgian than the Georgians themselves.
I am here also not only to listen but also to find the right way how to convince our executives in the European Union to find the best way to keep Georgia on the European path.
So, I am here also not only to listen but also to find the right way how to convince our executives in the European Union to find the best way to keep Georgia on the European path. Because it is our common interest, not only for those who are fighting in Georgia, but also for the European Union. And this fight on the Western front is not easy either, because I’m sure you know that Georgia is not the only priority on the agenda of politicians in the most powerful countries, especially in this very controversial, unpredictable situation that we are all in now.
There is some frustration among people sometimes about the opposition, you know, that they should be doing more. But then there’s another line of thought that you know that it’s a sort of grassroot movement. What do you think the opposition should do? Do you think they can do more?
I think this grassroots movement is essential now.
And it’s so essential that I think they have to be supportive towards politicians, more than the politicians – towards them. I myself have been a politician since 1990. And I know how often and how quickly people get tired of us politicians, of seeing the same faces. They need something new. So, but now the time coming when those who are on the streets and those who feel that they have to take responsibility on their shoulders, those who have the motivation to go forward, to take the lead and together with those who are experienced in politics, to do their job. Not just waiting for politicians to do everything. I think you also need very new faces in politics.
I think this grassroots movement is essential now.
I know that these demands for new elections are very serious, but the problem is how to achieve them, and I think you will be able to achieve new elections. It means that these new elections will be a test for the society, not only for politicians.
To understand, not to be manipulated anymore, not to be in the area of disinformation, which is really very difficult for some people now to understand what’s going on, who is who.
When the EU suspended the direct assistance to the Georgian Dream government it said that this assistance would be diverted to civil society and independent media. The Georgian Dream government has adopted all kinds of repressive legislation recently targeting civil society and media and more are in the pipeline. The United States has suspended its foreign assistance. So what should we expect from the EU and when? Because it may well be that by the time that EU actually diverts this assistance, there will be no one left to assist in Georgia.
The same voices are coming from different countries, especially from countries like yours, candidate countries or countries that have to deal with authoritarian regimes. So it’s very difficult for them to survive, whether it’s the opposition in Belarus, whether it’s the people in Moldova, even though they have their own pro-European government, but they lack resources. I came back from Armenia, from Yerevan, the same concerns everywhere.
So – in Africa, Latin America, everywhere – the same, the USAID was a very important part of everything they were doing until now. So yes, we have the same concerns and pushing hard our executives to move as quickly as possible.
The European Union is the best place to live, of course and I like the European way of life, but what I don’t like is very slow decision-making process.
Back from Tbilisi, of course, again and again, I will do my best to push, to ask, to send letters, e-mails, calling those who are responsible to be much faster. So, yes, I can only share the same concerns.
I cannot say more now, but I still believe that those promises will be fulfilled. But bear in mind that now all the countries, all the non-governmental organizations, from different countries are in line asking the European Union executives or the member states’ foundations. Those countries, they have their own similar to USAID foundations helping people everywhere. All those people are now asking and convincing. So, imagine the situation. It’s quite a drastic truth.
The difference in Georgia is that, unlike, let’s say, Belarus, which basically has no civil society left, we still have a vibrant civil society. We still have vibrant media in the country. And we have a government that is moving very fast. For instance, they have just registered legislative amendments that would hit the broadcasters very hard and, as watchdogs say, basically dismantle critical broadcasting in Georgia.
These are extraordinary times. I don’t know if we’re going to deal with the same rules, the same bureaucracy, the same frameworks. They have been put on the table and these frameworks are so rigid. We will not even be able to do more for ourselves in the EU, for example on defense and other issues or helping Ukraine not to be defeated on the battlefield. Because if I don’t know what the outcome will be on the support of the United States, so imagine how complex these challenges are and of course today’s priority is Ukraine, Ukraine and Ukraine.
How do you envisage events developing in Georgia?
I have my own vision and it remains the same as it was before the election here or before this situation happened weeks, few weeks ago, and before Munich, before Donald Trump, this possible new deal with Russia. Look, I don’t think anybody in the world knows what’s going to happen in the near future. It doesn’t mean that I have a pessimistic point of view, but if there are mistakes in America, in the United States, if they are made, there will be consequences. Maybe we will be able to avoid them, or maybe we will be able to get out of them later if they are made.
…What you’re doing here in the streets everywhere- it’s so important not to give up.
But the consequences can also be a pessimistic scenario and optimistic scenario. Well, I don’t want to be too pessimistic, but the fight is not going to be easy. And what you’re doing here in the streets everywhere- it’s so important not to give up.
Look at Volodymir Zelensky.
When Donald Trump announced what he was going to do, to meet Putin, to make a deal, everybody was scared. And only one person, maybe the only leader of a country, a fighting country, said, in a polite way, by the way, but he said “no”.
And that now encourages many others in the European Union to come back, to find a foundation for themselves to stay and to be more trustful.
So look how important your people on the streets are, it is the only way not to give up. I can imagine how difficult it is, but nobody else can but those people, who are fighting. It’s impressive. They’re our heroes of today, including the Georgians on the streets.
They are an inspiration for politicians, for everyone. Nothing will happen without you. So this is my view for the future, and the only hope.
You’ve mentioned, that there are so many other priorities on the agenda of the EU? How would you assess the EU’s commitment to the Georgian people at this point in time? What is the EU prepared to do to support democracy here?
I think that what the EU has done for Georgia- granting the candidacy status in 2023 – everyone understands that it was not because the government did something more than the others, but it was a message to the people.
Because Georgian Dream didn’t meet all the twelve requirements. Only three out of 12 were more or less in line, and it was very openly declared that they were not fulfilling all these requirements. But still the EU decided to give it to Georgia and to the Georgian people. So I think it’s a lot. It’s really a lot. Not to leave Georgia behind, but today that’s not enough.
On the other hand, I am not sure sometimes if it was not a mistake – I will be very open. Because those bad people, I will be very open to say that, they used this to manipulate people’s opinion before the election, saying: look, we are also pro-European.
So, not to give it [candidacy status] would be also a bad thing; while supporting people with the hope on EU membership was manipulated by the Georgian dream.
I don’t know if they are really so independent sometimes in their decisions.
At the recent meeting of EU foreign ministers, there was no consensus on sanctions against those responsible for the democratic setback in Georgia. We know that two countries are not convinced, let’s put it that way. Do you think they will change their stance? What’s the way forward?
I think everything that we, the European Union, have to do is contained in the most recent resolution of the European Parliament. We said it in a very clear way, also in terms of sanctions, mentioning in a very open way even the names of the people in the inner circle or the enablers. They are working together with Bidzina Ivanishvili, not only the Prime Minister, others, but many more, including, by the way, the media, or the media owned by Ivanishvili. But we have also mentioned what has not yet been used by member states- if we are not able to implement sanctions as European Union, if two are against, so why not use this instrument, implementation of sanctions in each of 25 national sanctions – and that would be something.
I would like to see a European Union that thinks more geopolitically, that understands how important the Black Sea region is for democracy.
So that’s our proposal. Lithuania, my country, has already done this, but it’s not enough. Maybe the new leadership in Germany can take the lead, not be afraid to take the lead and think more geopolitically. I would like to see a European Union that thinks more geopolitically, that understands how important the Black Sea region is for democracy. Without democracy here, it would be very difficult to fight all these autocracies and to remain democratic as in the continent, to have democracy prevail in the continent. If we leave grey areas or if we leave these countries for autocracies, that’s our failure. So this is the battle I mentioned, our battle in the West, to convince each other.
Georgian Dream says this is only a piece of paper. That it means nothing.
Look, the Bible is also a piece of paper. But in the beginning was the Word.
So, this is our mission of the European Parliament and parliaments everywhere.
Do you think that the mood in Brussels is sort of getting there and the sanctions issue, or the national sanctions issue, is getting more traction?
What I would like to say to your opposition politicians and others and people, of course I know that you are so busy right now trying to push your autocratic regime from inside here, but also somebody has to be active in the capitals of the EU to have as many advocates as possible. You have a very strong, powerful group of people in the European Parliament from different political groups. This resolution was adopted by 400 members – a huge number of members voted in favour and people from very different political groups. We have many differences, for example my party, the EPP, with the Socialists or with the Greens or with Renew or with the ECR. But five major European political parties are in favor and those who are responsible for Georgia in these political groups are really fighters for Georgia.
So you have to use your whole diaspora. People living in different countries. They have to organize themselves to meet the parliamentarians in those countries, to elect some representatives, to push, to send letters, e-mails, every single day if necessary, to fight for this together. Even in Lithuania, for example, there are very few channels through which people know that you are still fighting. There’s no information in our media about what’s going on in Georgia. It was during the elections or when this so-called president was inaugurated. Then there were many media. Now there are very few.
So this is very important. If you do not push them, if nobody pushes the leaders in Berlin, the new government or others, it will not be enough.
Although you are Europeans, of course, many know very little about the countries and nations of the South Caucasus. You have a rich history, rich European history. So everybody who comes here has to be convinced to help you. And to do the same there.
…Nobody from your embassies asks for meetings with us.
Besides, you don’t have diplomats working there. It’s your specific situation. The Ukrainians, Moldova, they have – pro-European diplomatic structures. They very often ask for meetings with us.
But nobody from your embassies asks for meetings with us.
And one last question. The US is seemingly taking an isolationist stance following the election Donald Trump. It’s expected that the Russia-Ukraine war will be over in several months, but it’s still unclear on what conditions and how, and the Euro- Atlantic security is changing before our eyes. What will be the role of the European Union in these circumstances? Do you think that the EU as a whole is prepared to step up to do more for its security?
There is no other way. No other choice. I hope, I expect, I believe. I see, for example, that the newly elected possible chancellor of Germany, Mertz, comes with very promising messages. We need leadership, we desperately need leadership of big powers in the EU. By the way, you mentioned the Eastern Europeans. You know, I flew from Yerevan to Tbilisi today and I had a map of Europe in my mind. This is Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe is here.
…We desperately need leadership of big powers in the EU.
So, this is our common approach to convince others that the European continent is not only the European Union and it’s in our interest to lead, someone has to lead, to make Europe stronger. Yes, we need weapons. Yes, we need to boost our military industries. Yes, we need to increase our military spending in order to be strong in military terms. Of course, it’s not because of Trump. Because it’s not fair, you know, to always count on the American taxpayers and not to take care of our own security, at least as much as we can.
The enlargement of Europe, not leaving grey zones around us – that’s also a very important part of [European] security.
But on the other hand, the enlargement of Europe, not leaving grey zones around us – that’s also a very important part of security. So these challenges are ahead of us, and you, Georgians, are part of this struggle, and that’s why I’m with you, because you’re fighting for our security too, not just for Georgia, like the Ukrainians are doing.
We have to start delivering. It is time to deliver.
Thank you