President Saakashvili’s Interview with Rustavi 2 TV

Transcript of the Rustavi 2 TV’s interview with President Saakashvili conducted by journalist Eka Kvesitadze. The interview was aired late on June 9.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: You have stated before your visit [to St. Petersburg] that many issues would clarify after your meeting with President Medvedev. What has been clarified on the June 6 meeting?
 
Saakashvili: I want to say that tone and atmosphere in itself was different from what I get used to during my Moscow visits and in the process of my relation with Russia.
 
It was more quiet conversation, but at the same time I want to say that major issues have remained. The major issue is very simple – in recent days, in recent weeks the conflict has moved out from the frozen condition; the process, which from the legal point of view can be assessed as annexation, is now ongoing and what the [Russian] Railway Forces are now doing there, along with deployment of paratroopers, is in fact launch of a military intervention.
 
I hope that this is of a temporary nature and I hope that it will not be followed with the process which is usually occurring after this kind of measures.
 
We have clearly explained to our Russian colleagues that…
 
Rustavi 2 TV: To President Medvedev?
 
Saakashvili: Sure. I personally have clearly explained to him that Georgia is very open and flexible to resolve all the issues, but the only thing that can not be traded off and that can not be sold is our territory and Georgia’s freedom and independence. No compromise is possible about these issues.
 
Georgia is not planning to violate international agreements. Georgia will use international law to achieve change of [peacekeeping] format and return of internally displaced persons, but the first thing that should be immediately done is withdrawal of additional troops from there in the nearest days.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: And what was the Russian President’s response on that? You have said that he behaves in more flexible manner and that is a good sign. What did you mean while saying that? And do you still have the same impression after that meeting?
 
Saakashvili: President Medvedev is a representative of different generation of politicians. He is a person who, like me, has been forming at the time when the Soviet Union was collapsing; we are almost the same age. He is from an intelligentsia family from St. Petersburg with a very good education. We are colleagues – experts of civil law and experts of civil law were distinguished with broad thinking, at least at the time when I was studying and of course all these [aspects] can be noticed [in President Medvedev].
 
Russia is a complicated and complex state. We can not build our actions for protection and strengthening of our country on developments in Russia’s internal politics. That would have been very rough mistake.
 
Georgia has its schedule, its fate and its way. Our goal for now is to withdraw those troops [from Abkhazia]; railway repair work – which actually aims at preparing for large-scale intervention and it is the beginning stage of the intervention, because there is no other explanation to what they are doing and it is not simply restoration of a railway. We can not be in principle against restoring the railway. On the contrary, it is much better if there is more movement and more roads. What is going on now is not restoration of railway.
 
On the issue of railway restoration, previously we have offered Russia: let’s bring in an European consortium, let’s engage in the process European Union, let’s announce international tender; we are now building a huge railway in southern Georgia [that will link Azerbaijan with Turkey via Georgia] and we would have resumed the railway [in Abkhazia] as well with great pleasure under the international control.
 
What is now going on in Abkhazia is a preparation the railway to transport tanks and military hardware. Each military expert will tell you this.
 
So our goal is – regardless of developments in Russia – to stop this local but very important problem. This problem is now being discussed now at the U.S.-EU summit in Slovenia, this will one of the major issue for discussion at the meeting between the Presidents of the U.S., France and Germany; this problem was the major discussion point – as the Russian President himself said – during his visit to Germany.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: All this has begun with the decree which was signed former President Putin. All the international experts agree that although Medvedev is the President, Putin remains the main decision-maker on the foreign policy issues. Do you hope that dialogue which failed to materialize with Putin will be successful with Medvedev?
 
Saakashvili: I want to reiterate that dialogue has no alternative. Russia has diversified interested, but Russia is now focused on Georgia. We should have dialogue with Russia, because an alternative to that will be permanent tensions that in turn will be devastating for us.
 
The April 16 decree, deployment of troops – all these mean unfreezing the conflict, hence bringing the conflict into a very dangerous stage.
 
So our any diplomatic step in next few days and weeks will be a response not what can happen in the future, but first of all to what is a threat today. Then, if Russia’s policy changes – and I hope it will change – we think we should resolve this conflict together with Russia; we think that Russia should be an important part of this resolution process.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: But is there room for negotiations when the issue comes to one fundamental issue – Georgia’s NATO integration. Russia perceives this as a hit to its national interests and Georgia says NATO integration is vital for its national interests. What is the space of maneuvering in this situation?
 
Saakashvili: Much more than 70% of Georgian voters have said on referendum that they want to join NATO. This is not our whim; this is a pragmatic decision of our nation. This pragmatic decision is based on concrete realities; one reality is to tolerate with what we have; cutting off of the best part of our territory. No one is offering anything else. I am not doing anything else in recent four years, just asking them: offer us something else, a model that would envisage restoration of Georgia’s control over its entire territory, that would exclude those problems which we have now; that would establish neighborly relations and everything else will be based on that. Instead of that I hear: give up, surrender; let’s go to dark bush and negotiate…
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Say no to NATO?..
 
Saakashvili: Let’s talk in bushes and you’ll get out of those bushes satisfied. Georgia has been in those bushes. It was exactly the same in 1918-21 – the Bolshevik Russia consolidated and then returned back to [Georgia] and was telling everyone: Germans you get aside [from Georgia], Britons get aside and when Russia’s 11th Army was entering into Georgia under the pretext of protection of Azerbaijanis, Lord [inaudible] sent a letter to [Bolshevik Russia’s Foreign Minister at that time Georgy] Chicherin – today’s [Sergey] Lavrov [Russia’s Foreign Minister] asking if it was true; [Chicherin responded] by saying what are you talking about, we have recognized Georgia’s territorial integrity and sovereignty for several times, who we can do such thing. Same was in 1939 when Stalin’s Soviet Union attacked Finland. They told Finland: we are friends, put aside the United States, put aside Europe and we will deal with our bilateral relations ourselves. We have this bitter experience and other European nations also have this bitter experience.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Mr. Saakashvili is Georgia ready to officially demand withdrawal of Russian peacekeeping forces – something that was impossible to do because of objective reasons before? Is your administration ready to put this issue?
 
Saakashvili: Not only we have right to demand withdrawal of the peacekeeping troops, but also today the international community, our partners are actually ready for that, which was not the case before.
 
About a month ago we have sent a letter to the secretariat of the Commonwealth of Independent States – we have not publicized that – in which we have demanded to into operation a mechanism for bilateral consultations, there has been no response, but one month has already passed and now we can raise this issue at any time.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Even tomorrow?
 
Saakashvili: We can do it any time. We have informed about it European Union; Solana was here; our American partners know about it and Russians actually also know about it, not actually but they know about it.
 
We hope to find way out of this situation together with Russia and with other partners. But in the end this is our country, our land and our future, so we ourselves should do everything through our diplomatic efforts to avoid hot conflict and on the other hand to avoid the threat of losing our territorial integrity.
 
Rustavi 2: Mr. Saakashvili on a question whether EU was ready to think on change of peacekeeping format, Polish President Kaczynski responded: “I look at this issue realistically and I do not want to mislead anyone over this issue; there is a p problem and this problem is of EU’s relations with Russia.” It is the fact that this problem was not overcome at the [NATO] Bucharest summit and Georgia was not granted with MAP [Membership Action Plan]. What are those guarantees that this problem will be overcome and EU unanimously stands beside Georgia – I mean change of the peacekeeping format?
 
Saakashvili: Full agreement, unanimous approach among the EU-member states over such issues is hardly imaginable…
 
Rustavi 2 TV: But in this case, we talk about France and Germany and these countries, which create the weather in EU.
 
Saakashvili: But, today the situation is different, in general. Unlike 1921, when Europe left Georgia and betrayed its moral principles – afterwards they left Czechoslovakia, they also left Poland, with whom both Germany and France had an alliance treaty in 1939. They also failed to do something to Finland and so on. They also left Hungary in 1956.
 
But today we live in the 21st century. There are several factors – the key factor is consolidation of our country. Our country is strong when it has internal unity and the recent elections have clearly demonstrated that Georgia has internal unity and the second, when the country has the support of the rest of the civilized democratic world.
 
The European Parliament has adopted the resolution, which breaks the stone. Even if I had written this resolution, I would not have written it better. And this resolution was written by the [European] parliamentarians, who visited Georgia just recently. If I am not wrong, this resolution has received over 550 votes.
 
The UN General Assembly has adopted a historical resolution on ethnic cleansing in Abkhazia. The U.S. Senate has also adopted several resolutions.
 
Someone may say – let’s them write and read their resolutions; but we live in the 21st century. Today the entire world has understood what we are talking about – it is about ethnic cleansing, return of refugees, implementation of aggressive actions and attempts of annexation. I think that the rest of the world has much more experience, but we are much more consolidated, we are much stronger. It is no more Georgia of 1921.       
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Today we face the situation, when provocations occur on a daily basis. And you said recently that this situation cannot last any more, when we are permanently anticipating provocations. Today international press, experts and politicians are saying that you should not yield to provocations. What kind of resources does the government have to avoid yielding to such provocations?
 
Saakashvili: We will not allow seizing of a part of our territory; we will not allow restriction of Georgia’s independence and even any thoughts about possible annexation and derailing Georgia from the road of freedom.
 
This is the most important what we should understand. There are no written scenarios, where is the line of what we should do.
 
There is one thing – we should take all diplomatic steps.
 
What was a stereotype about us? They are hysterical, hotheads…
 
Rustavi 2 TV: who would easily yield to provocations…
 
Saakashvili: … with Caucasian temper, you know, who Georgians area and that their concept was that nobody will ever understand these people except for Russians, only Russia knows how to talk with them.
 
Even today some European politicians used to say it, but less frequently, because today Georgia is not alone.
 
Georgia has 100% identification with 36 million Polish nation; 100% identification among 46 million Ukrainian nation; 100% identification among several millions of Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, as well as among the Czechs and Hungarians. If somebody touches Georgia today, they will imagine themselves in our place – Polish, Lithuanians, Latvians, Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, and Bulgarians – and this is already a very serious factor.
 
This issue goes beyond the Russian-Georgian orbit. We have achieved it. They, our opponents failed to achieve one thing – to say that this is a unique case, they are little bit crazy, and their President is unsettled.     
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Is there any threat of war in the context which you are talking about?
 
Saakashvili: If there is any threat of large conflict, this is a threat of such a large-scale conflict that the rest of the world will not allow it happen. Now the fate of the new world order, at least the European order, is being solved in Georgia.
 
It is good that Europe has already understood it. It is good that we gave them time for it and we won time.
 
Now, the initiators of provocations are perplexed because their scenario has failed. Now, everybody has guessed that today Abkhazia, tomorrow – Crimea; if tomorrow Crimea, the day after tomorrow it will be Estonia and Latvia. Then they [in Russia] will remember about eastern Poland and so on. This is an endless history.
 
Therefore, the line of – line of Mannheim or Maginot Line – avoiding the Cold War passes on Georgia. This is the line not for protecting Europe against Russia; this is the line for protecting against aggressive political mentality. There are different directions in Russia and it is being decided in Georgia, which direction will prevail.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Mr. President, you were talking about internal consolidation and that it is very important and it gives you force as to the head of state. But how can you talk about consolidation, when the political forces are extremely radicalized, when a part of the opposition does not plan to enter the parliament and when the National Movement has the constitutional majority in the parliament?
 
Saakashvili: The National Movement really has the constitutional majority and you gave a correct answer to [this question].
 
But it [the fact that ruling party has constitutional majority] does not at all mean that there is a split in the society. On the contrary, this confirms absolute consolidation of the society. For these latest years I have been hearing – Saakashvili has lost his rating, how their situation aggravated – but the fact is obvious, we received during the parliamentary elections practically as many votes as we received during the parliamentary elections after the Rose Revolution. It already means much. After four years of painful reforms, after all these mistakes made, our people found wisdom and rationality to give us majority of votes.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: You say that you have received majority of votes. At the same time, the opposition and the international organizations accuse you of not creating equal conditions for the opposition, that the authorities have used administrative resources, that there were cases of intimidation, that media was not free?
 
Saakashvili: Watching your [TV] program, we cannot see any fear in the eyes of our critics.
 
They did everything that they were not allowed to do. They called us everything what they should not have called us. They burnt all the bridges, which could be burnt. But, I will repeat – our key value is unity.
 
We are a great country in terms of history and civilization, but a small country by size and strength of population. We have no people to lose.
 
We have developed a 50-month program on settlement of social problems in Georgia.
 
World economy condition is bad. Oil prices are increasing everyday, petrol prices are increasing, food prices are increasing. We should forestall it by our quick development. And in this case, no matter how we are being insulted, whatever we are called, we should take it easy, we should restore all destroyed bridges, if they do not want, we should restore all burnt bridges.
 
I welcome the fact that the parliamentary majority has offered the posts in the parliament to the opposition, as well as serious levers to get involved in the ruling as much as possible. Even a small group should have a chance to participate in the process.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: How?
 
Saakashvili: Very simply. They [the opposition] has been offered the vice-speakers’ positions, as well as posts in the parliamentary committees.
 
I have offered them the positions in the Georgian government and if they have a desire, this offer remains in force.
 
Unfortunately, they [the opposition] held a very incorrect election campaign, because making focus only on negative campaign is not correct.
 
I told about it to Levan Gachechiladze [co-leader of opposition coalition] during our latest conversation, a couple of months ago. I told him: Levan the more you hold hunger strikes – it was just before the opposition’s hunger strike – the more it would destroy you; believe me do not do that; I really want good for you.
 
I really wanted that, because I want the opposition to be constructively strong.
 
I told him – make focus on social issues, concentrate on what the people suffers most of all and a part of the people will follow you.
 
He, however, probably thought that I was cheating him and it was a trick; but I was frank.
 
He [Levan Gachechiladze] did not believe me and received the votes, which they have now [17.73%]. Everybody knows that they received those votes. Whatever we say, everybody knows that they received those votes and we received these votes [59.18%].
 
But those parties, which overcome 5% threshold, should find the levers in the parliament and those parties, which received only 2% or 1% should also be involved in the country’s ruling in various forms. It has no alternative.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Do you think that the constitutional majority is a threat to democracy? Your personal friend, [the Polish President] Lech Kaczynski said during an interview with us that such a strong government is always doomed for making mistakes and sometimes even for committing a crime. Do you face such a threat?
 
Saakashvili: Every government always faces a threat – it is guaranteed to make mistakes – a threat to make rough and grave mistakes, sometimes even fatal errors. This threat always persists. The responsibility for taking these seats is very high.
 
Very often we hear – look, this is a violent government. But in violence they often mean that we demand observance of law. The freedom of punching a fist ends where a nose of your citizen starts. And if they do not understand it, they will be met by the hand of the state and you may feel pain when your fist strikes this hand. This is a strong hand.
 
We have eradicated corruption in Georgia – not a single leader of the eastern European country can say it and especially in our neighborhood. The crime rate has decreased several times in Georgia, the rate of violence has decreased several times.
 
The crime rate has decreased several times in Georgia; the rate of violence has decreased several times. The state institutions have been established in Georgia and some people did not accept these institutions.
 
Those, who make a noise most frequently, are the people who lost something. Whatever kind words we say to these people – sometimes I also have said bad words about them – when people have lost billions of incomes – in combined sum – they cannot be satisfied.
 
Most important is to give a perspective of future to these people and the rest of the society should understand why a certain group is so unsatisfied and so irrationally aggressive. But the society does not need my advice; the society has understood it at these elections.
 
But, despite of this very important breakthrough for our country, we should do our best to recover all these injuries and to make the society consolidated. We should understand that whatever incomes we had lost and whatever privileges we had lost, everybody, we and our children, should have a future.
 
Rustavi 2 TV: Thank you very much for the interview.