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Interview | U.S. Ambassador Kelly C. Degnan

Outgoing U.S. Ambassador Kelly C. Degnan was interviewed by Publika magazine. In agreement with our colleagues, Civil.ge is publishing the English-language transcript.


Publika: What is your take on the state of development of the strategic partnership between the United States and Georgia during your tenure?

Ambassador Degnan:  I’ve been here now for three years, and I’ve had a chance to travel all over Georgia, which has been really a wonderful experience for me. In fact, I would say that that is truly the best experience of my three years — the chance to travel and meet Georgians from all over the country and learn from them about what they’re doing, about their dreams, their accomplishments.

It has helped me learn more about Georgian culture, Georgian history, and it has also helped the United States better support the people of Georgia in their path toward a European future. What I have seen in my three years here is that it is the clear choice of the people of Georgia: to have a European future, to have a strong democracy, a prosperous, diverse economy, and of course, to have the stability and security that they need and deserve.

For over 30 years, we have been working with Georgia and our partners and the government here, regardless of which political party is in power, to help Georgia build that security, to help Georgia build that diverse economy, and to help Georgia build the strong democratic institutions that a healthy democracy needs. All we have done here is build, build with our Georgian partners, to help them achieve that goal of a Euro-Atlantic future that they have chosen and that they deserve.

Publika: What would you name as the most important challenges?

Ambassador Degnan:  It’s an important question. Overall, I would say the most challenging thing has been promoting unity. I think the fact that this is a very polarized society makes it hard to move forward to see the progress that Georgians want and that Georgians deserve. When I travel, I see how much energy and ingenuity and entrepreneurship there is throughout this country, and that is held back by this polarized situation.  This is a part of the transition that Georgia is going through to shed the remains of the Soviet legacy and really move forward to be the modern, prosperous democracy that Georgians have been striving to build. There are some who resist these reforms because they are not in their interests, and I think that has created a barrier to the kind of progress in building Georgia’s strong democratic institutions.  

So, from my three years here, I would say promoting the unity that is needed to see Georgia progress in its security, its economy, its democratic institutions has been the biggest challenge. That’s why the efforts toward addressing the 12 priorities that the European Commission set for Georgia are so important – because while those are very difficult and challenging, they are the same homework that Georgia has had for many years. Georgia has made some important progress in all those areas, and there is no reason to think that Georgia can’t continue to make progress in these areas. I’m confident that Georgia is going to be able to make progress in achieving that goal, which is the choice, and the desire, and the dream of the Georgian people.

I hope that Georgia’s political leaders are strong enough to unify this country around that idea of accomplishing and achieving European candidate status

But it means that every Georgian political leader has to be working intensely and urgently to fulfill those 12 recommendations and to make the reforms that are necessary, not just for European candidate status, but because they arre good for Georgia’s development, for Georgia’s stability, for Georgia’s prosperity.  So, I think the most challenging has been that idea of promoting unity and coming together to work.  I hope that Georgia’s political leaders are strong enough to unify this country around that idea of accomplishing and achieving European candidate status: the next step on that path to European Union membership for Georgia.

Q: What is holding Georgia back in overcoming polarization?

Ambassador Degnan:  Strong leadership that lives up to Georgia’s national model of Dzala Ertobashia (Strength in Unity), setting the example for the people of Georgia at the leadership level across the board. This is a difficult period, but it is also an incredible opportunity for this country that should not be missed.

That’s why I say Georgia’s political leaders should all be working urgently and in a united fashion for these necessary reforms. Some are resisting them because they conflict with their own interests, but what should be central? Here are the interests of this country and the interests of the Georgian people, and that is the Euro-Atlantic future that the majority of Georgians want.

That is important because that brings concrete benefits to families and communities throughout this country. It brings economic prosperity.  It means it brings better-paying jobs. It means it brings better markets and higher prices for products that are grown here, and it brings greater stability.

The United States wants to see Georgia succeed on its path. That’s why we have been Georgia’s steadfast partner for the past 30 years, and it would’ve been even longer than 30 years if the Soviets hadn’t invaded back in 1921

Our firm belief is that a strong, prosperous democracy is the most stable country, and we are all better off when we have that kind of stability and prosperity in our neighbors and in our partners. The United States wants to see Georgia succeed on its path. That’s why we have been Georgia’s steadfast partner for the past 30 years, and it would’ve been even longer than 30 years if the Soviets hadn’t invaded back in 1921—on this very day, I believe. This is a not an easy path. It’s not an easy goal, but as I said, I am confident that if Georgia’s leaders and Georgia’s people unify to work for the best interests of this country, the best interests for the children of the next generation of Georgians, as well as those today, they can accomplish this.

Q: How thoroughly has the Georgian government been working on achieving the EU candidate status?

Ambassador Degnan: Well, it’s not for the United States to assess this. This will be based on what the European Commission and the European Council do later this year. What we strongly want to see, of course, is a very positive response at the end of the year because Georgia has come together and shown a true commitment to addressing the 12 priorities. More important than just checking the box for these 12 priorities, though, is demonstrating that Georgia has a true commitment to the shared values and the principles that are what hold the European Union together.

More important than just checking the box for these 12 priorities, though, is demonstrating that Georgia has a true commitment to the shared values and the principles that are what hold the European Union together.

This is a family that is bound together by shared values, the importance of freedoms, whether it’s freedom of association, freedom of expression, strong, robust media freedom, as well as mutual respect for one another’s culture and identity. If you’ve traveled around the European Union, you know that Italy is still Italy and Sweden is still Sweden, and France and Croatia, they still retain their unique identities and their rich cultures.  In many ways, joining the European Union only helps protect and preserve cultures and identities.  

In many ways, joining the European Union only helps protect and preserve cultures and identities.  

Actually, that’s one of the things the United States is very proud of in our partnership with Georgia, that we have been able to work with the government and partners here to help preserve some of Georgia’s unique culture. We just had a wonderful project with the Smithsonian and the Conservatoire here to digitize old recordings of Georgia’s regional polyphonic singing that were deteriorating, that were almost vanishing.  We also helped preserve ancient manuscripts of Georgian writings that are now on display at the Mestia Museum. Churches, museums, and the observatory at a Abastumani — these are all projects that the United States has supported to help preserve Georgia’s unique culture and identity.

That is why there is such a commitment to joining the European Union, to joining the Euro-Atlantic family – because Georgia’s orientation has always been toward Europe. This is a natural progression for this country. What is needed now in the coming months is for the leaders, for the people, to really come together behind the principles that hold European Union together and demonstrate their true commitment to being a strong democracy.

Q: Talking about coming together towards the European integration, we have heard an intensified wave of disinformation campaign against that, including from some people in the ruling majority. Who is behind this campaign, in your mind?

Ambassador Degnan:  That’s a very important question and probably one of the biggest challenges that all our societies are facing right now, because disinformation hurts everyone. Disinformation is designed to confuse people. It’s designed to cultivate fear. It’s designed to divide people, and we’re seeing that very much at play here in Georgia.

There’s been a campaign to undermine Georgia’s strong partnership with the United States, with the European Union, with its Western friends and partners, that have been working for decades now to help Georgia progress and build its societies.

I think a good example is this “second front” disinformation, which is – again – designed to cultivate fear in society, to keep people afraid, to keep Georgians afraid. It is completely false and contrary to everything we’ve been doing with Georgia for the past 30 years, which is to help Georgia build its security.

The “second front” campaign is completely false and contrary to everything we’ve been doing with Georgia for the past 30 years.

The work Georgia and the United States have done to strengthen the Georgian Defense Forces, to strengthen the border police, the Coast Guard, and law enforcement—across the board—has been very effective in strengthening Georgia’s ability to defend its own borders, to deter aggression. That work continues today as a result of our partnership.

It’s worth stepping back and looking at what Russia is doing here with this disinformation.  What are they trying to do? They’re trying to inject false narratives that will confuse people, insert lies that will create chaos and sow doubt to distract people from what Russia is doing: invading Georgia in 2008, invading Ukraine in 2014—and again last year. Russia is trying to tear down societies, is trying to eliminate identities and culture. That’s what Russia tried to do here in Georgia. That’s what Russia is trying to do in Ukraine. It is completely different than what the United States and Georgia’s Western partners have been doing with Georgia for 30 years—and that is building. Russia wants to destroy, and the United States and Georgia, as partners, are focused on building and strengthening Georgia as a prosperous, stable democracy.

Q: Is Georgia still a priority for the West? If not, is this due to the position of the Georgian government?

Ambassador Degnan:  Georgia continues to be a very important partner to the United States.  Two very senior senators just came here. It was the third visit that Senator Shaheen has made here in the three years I’ve been here, even despite COVID. Georgia’s position is even more important in many ways because it is so much a part of the Ukraine equation. When you look at the aggression, the attacks, and the intent of Putin’s war against Ukraine—to eliminate Ukraine’s identity, eliminate Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence, Georgia becomes an even more important consideration in that context.

The United States is very sensitive to the situation that Georgia is in, with Russia already occupying 20% of your territory. I think there’s a good understanding of how that limits Georgia’s choices sometimes.  We are very grateful and appreciate the strong support that the people of Georgia have shown to the Ukrainian public in their time of need, the generous display of humanitarian assistance, the government’s recent purchase of a number of industrial generators, which were desperately needed to help hospitals and the people of Ukraine stay warm in this winter.

The Georgian government has also supported UN Security Council resolutions for Ukraine, speaking out against Russia’s aggression in Ukraine. There’s a real understanding of this.  What the United States is trying to do, in every way we can, is help Ukraine restore peace, help Ukraine end this war as quickly as possible, and help Ukraine preserve its sovereignty and identity, and its independence.

Russia is trying to absorb countries like Ukraine, absorb countries like Belarus, threaten countries like Georgia.  If you look around, no one is choosing to be with Russia.

Russia is trying to absorb countries like Ukraine, absorb countries like Belarus, threaten countries like Georgia.  If you look around, no one is choosing to be with Russia. What we’ve got instead is a very strong, united, international support for Ukraine and for countries like Georgia that are occupied by an aggressor like Russia.  I’m very confident that our partnership is going to continue. We have more work to do, and we are very enthusiastic about doing it because we have terrific partners both in aspects of the government and in our NGOs and civil society, who are the people of Georgia. We work with the people of Georgia, whether it’s a farmer’s association or a business association or energy conglomerate or legal aid. We work with the people of Georgia through these civil society organizations to help this country be stronger, more prosperous, and ultimately more democratic.

Q: You have mentioned civil society and NGOs, and of course we have to ask about the draft law on foreign agents, which is perceived by many as a tool for the government to silence its opponents. Some of the authors of the law are claiming it is based on the U.S. law. What is your thinking about this draft?

Ambassador Degnan: I know this is existential for small media outlets like Publika and many others. Let’s be clear about what this law is not about. It is not about transparency. There is already ample transparency provided.  Donors, like USAID and others have to provide detailed accounts of how our assistance funds are spent in Georgia every three months to Parliament. All the partners that we work with, the Georgian partners, have to provide detailed information to Georgia’s Revenue Service. So, this is not about transparency. That information is up on multiple websites. It’s also not the United States law, as the Senators made clear. That law targets law firms and lobbyists who are hired to represent the interests of foreign governments in the United States. That is not what this draft legislation is about.

This draft legislation would stop Georgians who are helping other Georgians work in the best interests of Georgia. This law would stop organizations that are trying to help Georgian communities, whether it’s an independent living center where families with persons with disabilities go to get support and assistance. It would stop legal aid that is helping people in desperate need in many communities around this country.  It would stop tourism organizations that are trying to promote Georgia as a tourist de destination, which is so important to so many jobs. It would undermine the assistance that, for instance, we are providing to Georgian farmers. It would even undermine medical research that is supported by foreign donors like the United States and many European countries, business associations, farmers associations, environmental groups—the range of civil society organizations and partners that would be essentially stigmatized and labeled as spies, working for a foreign government, when they are here working for Georgia’s best interests.  That is what concerns all of us about this legislation. It would be important to be clear about what this legislation is really aimed at. It looks like the Russian legislation that was aimed at stigmatizing and silencing civil society, silencing dissenting voices, and the Russian law was very effective at doing that.

It would be important to be clear about what this legislation is really aimed at. It looks like the Russian legislation that was aimed at stigmatizing and silencing civil society, silencing dissenting voices, and the Russian law was very effective at doing that.

If you look at civil society in Russia right now, it’s been silenced. Many of those organizations have had to leave Russia, rather than building a vibrant society and democracy, which is what the United States and our Georgian partners have been doing over the past years. This law would silence those voices, and would set back that work. This law would stand in the way of Georgia’s aspirations for European Union membership. I think that has been made very clear. It is incompatible with the basic principles of a modern democratic country. I hope the Parliament will step back and think about what they’re trying to accomplish here. They should consult with their partners and friends to better understand the impacts and the consequences of this law before going forward.

Q: How would the United States act to prevent this?

Ambassador Degnan:  If the Parliament is interested in really understanding the consequences, I hope they will consult with their partners. This law will have such a significant impact on our ability to continue to provide the kind of assistance to those groups I mentioned:  farmer’s associations, legal assistance, tourism, and people with disabilities.  That’s just U.S. assistance, but every donor nation is going to be having to make the same kind of assessment of whether we can continue to provide that kind of support to Georgia.  

In some cases, our support is working with local governments or national government to provide services that this government is not in a position to provide. The impacts are significant. I would hope that that would make the Parliament step back and reconsider introducing this law. When this law was introduced, it was presented as something aimed at increasing transparency. There is already ample transparency. If Parliament would take stock of how much information is already readily available to Parliament and to the public regarding the way foreign assistance is used here in Georgia, they would see that there is no problem with transparency. Perhaps there’s no need for this law.

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